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The brick wall for the MS3/6 guys.

JohnnyT

New Member
By far, the most technical, relevant, and up to date information for our cars. A great way to kill some time at work :)
 

JohnnyT

New Member
Meh...if you want a car >400whp then this definitely isn't your platform, nor should it have been from the start. It's been the perfect dd for me though.
 

dmention7

Hater
Actually, I look at that thread the opposite way as some of you are saying. Identifying that the lack of control over injector phase/cycle time is what's holding the DISI back, is like taking off a blindfold and being able to see your obstacle clearly. There is a brick wall there, but at least now we can see the wall and start figuring out how to knock it down.

From a tech standpoint, it's a fairly simple point: without control over the time when the injectors open and close, all you can do is crank up the FP pressure and hope to squeeze a few more gas molecules through during a fixed injector cycle. From what I read, being able to control the injector cycle will theoretically allow you to get double the fuel into the cylinder.

The only question is whether someone can crack the PCM code that controls the injector phase and cycle, and whether they can do it before people stop giving a fuck... lol
 

ZixxspeeD

New Member
Actually, I look at that thread the opposite way as some of you are saying. Identifying that the lack of control over injector phase/cycle time is what's holding the DISI back, is like taking off a blindfold and being able to see your obstacle clearly. There is a brick wall there, but at least now we can see the wall and start figuring out how to knock it down.

From a tech standpoint, it's a fairly simple point: without control over the time when the injectors open and close, all you can do is crank up the FP pressure and hope to squeeze a few more gas molecules through during a fixed injector cycle. From what I read, being able to control the injector cycle will theoretically allow you to get double the fuel into the cylinder.

The only question is whether someone can crack the PCM code that controls the injector phase and cycle, and whether they can do it before people stop giving a fuck... lol

agreed....
 

JohnnyT

New Member
I totally agree Jay, it's great that we now know the biggest barriers. Solving them is the first step (like you said, cracking the ECU - which is being worked on), and coming out with products to break it in a timely fashion, and at a reasonable price, is the next.
 

niterydr

Legendary Status!
I was using a CPE standback that claimed to have control or atleast logging over injector phasing, has that been ironed out? I know it allowed me to shift the afr around a little bit, but I couldn't actually adjust length of spray afaik. This was probably early 2007..and only saw it on 1 car.

Cliffs for the link as I can't access it at work. DI is awesome if you can harness and tweak it.
 

AJ

110 HP of FURY!
I think you guys will find a lot more products surround these cars as the warranties come up. Once people realize there becomes a greater market for a solution, the industry usually follows with the parts. Many may ask and address the need on forums locally and nationwide, but the actual percentage of those willing to SPEND money now probably isn't near what it needs to be for some serious R&D. After the warranty periods end, I expect some serious items to follow for the MS3 & MS6 within that year or 2. This isn't exactly an EVO market where a new car get's driven off the lot and straight for a garage of parts waiting.

As for the comment about not finding a tuner around here.... huh? MAP, DB, Swanny (niterydr on here and formally from LSE).
 

niterydr

Legendary Status!
I was using a CPE standback that claimed to have control or atleast logging over injector phasing, has that been ironed out? I know it allowed me to shift the afr around a little bit, but I couldn't actually adjust length of spray afaik. This was probably early 2007..and only saw it on 1 car.

Cliffs for the link as I can't access it at work. DI is awesome if you can harness and tweak it.
I didn't get a chance to read that thread yet, maybe tonight if I remember.

I would be more than willing to work on/tune a DI 2.3L engine. I really liked where that standback was going, but I believe the customer I had at the time had one of the first 5 beta units. I remember chatting with the engineerings for a few hours on the phone giving them my feedback on the system and what I was seeing for changes on the dyno live.

:( Makes me miss tuning fulltime.
 

ZixxspeeD

New Member
As for the comment about not finding a tuner around here.... huh? MAP, DB, Swanny (niterydr on here and formally from LSE).

map wont be able to from what i was told wehn i pmed them through mnsc.net

I gotta talk to ron still when the atr is released he said he could probably help tuning it.
 

RoadRageMotors

New Member
well i dont agree with ptp

its just going to take a suplemental fuel system like we used to run on the dsm's back in the 90's.

the big thing that is holding everyone back is warrentys and car payments
 

niterydr

Legendary Status!
Alright back at my old computer.

With the standback stuff: It was logging over injector time but I couldn't change the start times, which is exactly what the ptp guy stated. Without the ability to phase the injectors you are stuck with the factory window. You can't "preload" the fuel charge.

One way around would be an auxiliary fuel system, as mentioned.

Another would be a wet nitrous kit, that'll get you power.

If the ecu maps can be cracked to allow injector phasing the power potential should go up quite a bit. I believe someone on that thread went over injector timing. Injector timing is expressed in milliseconds of pulsewidth, this tells you how long the injector is on. Your window of opportunity is very very small and gets smaller as rpm goes up. Some ecu's are setup as an end time and when you add signal it adds it to the front of the signal, some ecus are setup as a start time and it adds as you go. From what I read, if I read it correctly, the DI Mazda ecu has a preset start time and goes from there.

The problem is once you exceed your window of opportunity you are essentially spraying fuel out the exhaust valves and into the exhaust...doesn't work to well when you need combustion inside the cylinder to make power.

So a few alternatives were mentioned and promptly dealt with. Better flowing injectors would get more fuel in there, but not much compared to the headache at idle. Adding fuel pressure will get you more wiggle room as it also increases the size of the injectors, but you are still on the time constraint. The other option is to get it so you can phase the injector timing. This way you can "preload" the opening of the injectors so you can get the maximum amount of spray into the combustion chamber before the exhaust valves open (and before spark obviously).

OR...

You add a wet fuel setup. This could get tricky depending the intake manifold design, but it would be possible to add a "5th injector" (or 7th injector) and control that on a boost only way. The GM guys have been doing it for years with some success. I remember tuning a cyclone that had stock fueling, a massive turbo, and a large additional injector setup. Car idled stock and made 450awhp, not bad out of a truck on pump fuel (92 octane).

It looks like Cobb is trying to crack the phasing control. Many standalones have control of phasing control on regular efi setups, but direct injection is another ballgame because your window of opportunity isn't as large. You can't have fuel on the back on the intake valve waiting to go in (not a good idea but I've seen it done), as you will just be pooling fuel into the piston, again not good.

The more I think about it, I think the more I like the idea of developing an aux fuel system as roadragemotors mentioned (what is your name btw?)
 

cosmicspd3

New Member
its got nothing to do with warranties or meth/nos. Did you guys read the entire thread? Its fairly complicated but the ecu isnt fully cracked yet, so we have to wait until cobb stops beating around the bush of what they have unlocked or someone else, most likely cpe, finds more as well. Also comparing this to a dsm is way apples to oranges. the DI engine in this car is much more complicated in terms of being able to tune. The cobalt ss seems to have had a slight issue as well, were 400hp was the max they go, well like 409. Im sure the cobalt will go higher cuz HPtuners has a much better control over the ecu than anyone does for the ms3 but still goes to show how much harder it is to tune on a DI (for the time being). I know some vw guys had 600hp blah blah but they had pretty much full control over the ecu.

Seems a couple places are working on this so hopefully something happens this year, but honestly who really needs that much hp to the wheels? 1/4 people? eh ford announced the focus RS is being highly considered to be brought over...im gonna part out the ms3 and buy that lol :p
 
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