RPWR

[Jesse MS3GT]

Oh look at the economy, its going so great... Us tinfoilers didnt know anything, along with our looney Ron Paul

 

[dmention7]

(disclaimer: this was posted in On-Point, so I figure it's fair game a serious reply.)

Okay... seriously, what exactly does Ron Paul have to do with the current state of the economy? Are you honestly suggesting that the economy is in the shitter primarily because everyone didn't stop in their tracks and take his word as gospel? (Also, what specific forecasts has Ron Paul made that have come true, and what specific actions has he endorsed that logically would have made a difference here?)

No offense, but I guess that's the easy part about being a "tinfoiler"... you can make all the claims you want in full knowledge that they will never be tested practically, and then sit back and be the first to say "I told you so" and "If only you had listened to Ron Paul" when something goes wrong.

A little lesson in logical thinking: If A, B, and C are hypotheses, and if A and B are proven wrong, then C does not logically follow. Ironically, that is exactly the kind of thinking that the two-party system pushes: "Oh, look how horrible things are under a Republican president! Obviously things will be better with a Democratic president" and vice versa. The ironic part is that that's the kind of thinking that third-party candidates try to dispel, but here you're simply extending it: "Oh look how horrible things are with Republicans and Democrats in control! Obviously things could only be better if Ron Paul was in charge"


And for the record, I am strongly opposed to the whole 2-party system BS we have going on right now... but I'm even more strongly opposed to dogmatic thinking and fan-boyism.

 

[ZoomZoom Diva]

I tend to agree with Jesse that we would not be in this situation if the government had been run according to the Constitution of the United States.

One could also say the massive federal debt and high levels of taxation are making things worse, that the government red tape preventing the utilization of our own resources and expanding refining and generating capacity has not helped either.

SELECTIVE deregulation where the risk remains socialized while the returns are increasingly privatized merely invites people to make decisions and policies differently than if they are also exposed to the risk aspect.

FASB157 regulation also was directly responsible for much of the banking industry problems, forcing them to write down many billions in capital and book expenses they have not yet incurred. This gave the banks no opportunity to hold mortgage assets and extract the maximum value from them, and also a vicious circle that spiraled downward over loss of asset value to loss of capital to even more loss of value and so on... along with expectations of immediate recapitalization have frozen the credit markets.

 

[AJ]

The whole aspect is full of shit. The goverment is run by those corporations who can afford to put the most money in the back pockets of those in office in order to makes changes that bump their own financials.

Compton has more economic stability in it's drug trade than our goverment has.

Jesse must of gotten banned from MNSC or somthing to come back here with this out of the blue. Lollerskate around the Whitehouse! Werd.

 

[spek1098]

Yea, we would be entering a 2nd a second great depression if things were run the Ron Paul way. There would be no federal reserve to even deal with these issues. Excessive regulation is harmful, but this entire current situation blew up and out of control in September specifically because of the lack of regulations on credit defaults swaps.

On FASB157: So would you rather the banks have another method to hide risks and losses from investors and help them artificially inflate the values of their banks? Because that's what you’re advocating by complaining about that provision and it also seems to be how we got into this entire morgage mess in the first place.

 

[WhiteSpy9]

Ok, I'll admit right now that I don't follow a political view of what has/was happening, BUT
From my view (this is a VERY limited one) this has all been the consumer's fault of gobbling up money that they could not afford to pay back.

Sure gas prices have risen, sure other commodities have risen, but ultimately the number of bankruptcies out there are because bottom line they couldn't afford them to begin with.

I know I'm not up with all the political and business stuff that is going on, but I still see it as the consumers fault for taking those crap ass loans, hook line and sinker.

 

[ij1889]

FASB157 regulation also was directly responsible for much of the banking industry problems, forcing them to write down many billions in capital and book expenses they have not yet incurred. This gave the banks no opportunity to hold mortgage assets and extract the maximum value from them, and also a vicious circle that spiraled downward over loss of asset value to loss of capital to even more loss of value and so on... along with expectations of immediate recapitalization have frozen the credit markets.

i balme the banks/corporations more than i blame the gov for where we are, they gave credit to anybody, to buy houses that were completly out of a persons league. 30% of the people who own a property cannot afford it, we would have been fine if they would have choosen to rent or save up more.

its like given a 10 year old credit card and said "okay dear, here is a credit card, you can only afford to spend $10 dollars" whats he gonna do with a credit card? buy some candy and prob go over the $10 dollars and then realize he can get away with it and then he'd buy a gaming system and a couple gmaes, so he went over by a good $400 dollars at the very least.

this reminds me of the roaring twenties before the depression, credit was a new thing and people did not really understand the concept of it, so what did you get? alot of money being owed and nobody paying because no one had the money to pay it back.... hmmmm.... sounds exactly like were going through... eh?

oh and ps i dont believe that any president whether it be bush, kerry, obama, mcain, OR even Ron Paul could have helped make things better, the banks have screwed us on this again

 

[YSOSLO]

I choose not to debate the economic models thrown out by anyone with a podium, I have to point out that several of the comments above regarding the inability to pay a mortgage on a home because they were buying beyond their means doesn't apply as often as many assume. It's my belief that many of the families being put out of their homes are in that situation due to loss of a job, health care bills, lack of adequate health insurance to cover expenses that normally would be covered by an employer heath care plan and other influences beyond the homeowner's control. Now before any of you freak out, I'm not claiming all or even MOST of the individuals in financial dire straits are a result of these things...plenty of them bought houses they should have known they weren't able to afford, yet they were convinced by mortgage "professionals" that their dream home was within their means by using interest-only loans or ARMs all based on the assumption that income would increase (ain't happening with Republicans running the show, unless you're the boss) and home values would continue to rise (which can't happen if people's incomes aren't going up enough to afford them). Ultimately IMO the economy can only grow as much as the salaries/wages/income of ALL the people in a community. Life is great if you're one of the rich CEOs or business owners that got rich by paying employees shitty wages and not providing health care, because the cuts in taxes on stock sales and capital gains and all of the things that help everyone, but help the rich exponentially. I think the thumb has been on the average Joe for so long that there was no place for the Economy to go, but down because prices have continued to increase on everything from gas to food to heat and on virtually every other product out there, yet wages have increased very little overall. IMO trickledown economics has been the biggest failure of all time.

 

[Jesse MS3GT]

(disclaimer: this was posted in On-Point, so I figure it's fair game a serious reply.)

Okay... seriously, what exactly does Ron Paul have to do with the current state of the economy? Are you honestly suggesting that the economy is in the shitter primarily because everyone didn't stop in their tracks and take his word as gospel? (Also, what specific forecasts has Ron Paul made that have come true, and what specific actions has he endorsed that logically would have made a difference here?)

He would have gotten rid of the private Federal Reserve bank, which is considered "extreme". I consider having a private entity within the government issuing our currency as "extreme" when the government has the power to issue its own money. The Feds have caused every economic turmoil we have faced, including the current housing crisis.

RP hounded the Fed about their practices when he was running for president, and talked about an inescapable recession. What did the feds say? "Sub prime lending is positive when done responsibly, we are not facing a recession". The Fed even said the economy was ok up until August, then out of nowhere in Septemeber they said the sky was falling. Its a scam. They arent incompetent, they just arent here for the people.

And dont go claiming me stating the Fed private as a conspiracy theory. Although the conspiracy theorists have been blurting this out loud for decades, now even the mainstream media will report the fact its private.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLCHWhmyn8w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFxZDTAXEhg

As long as we have the Federal Reserve issuing our currency we will continue to have economic "crises". The founding fathers, and many former presidents were well aware of this fact.

Im glad you see through the two party system bullshit, at least you're not so close minded to think you can only be an R or D. But regardless if we get a green, independent or constitutional candidate in the white house, nothing will change unless they get rid of the Federal Reserve. America has not been America since the turn of the 19th century, the founding fathers are rolling in their graves.

Presidents

"I believe banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

Thomas Jefferson, Founding Father and President


"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance."

James Madison


“All of the perplexities, confusion, and distress in America arises, not from the defects of the Constitution or Confederation, not from want of honor or virtue, so much as from downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit, and circulation.”

John Adams, Founding Father and President


“Whoever controls the volume of money in our country is absolute master of all industry and commerce...and when you realize that the entire system is very easily controlled, one way or another, by a few powerful men at the top, you will not have to be told how periods of inflation and depression originate.”

James A. Garfield, assassinated president of the United States


"The Government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credits needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government and the buying power of consumers. By the adoption of these principles, the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest. The privilege of creating and issuing money is not only the supreme prerogative of government, but it is the government’s greatest creative opportunity.”

Abraham Lincoln, assassinated president of the United States


"Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the U. S., in the field of commerce and manufacturing, are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."

“I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world, no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.”

Woodrow Wilson, after signing the Federal Reserve Act into law


"When a government is dependent upon bankers for money, they and not the leaders of the government control the situation, since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain."

"The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial
element in the large centers has owned the government ever since
the days of Andrew Jackson"

Franklin D. Roosevelt

Mayors and Congressmen

"...The real menace of our republic is this invisible government which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy length over City, State, and nation... It seizes in its long and powerful tentacles our executive officers, our legislative bodies, our schools, our courts, our newspapers, and every agency created for the public protection... To depart from mere generalizations, let me say that at the head of this octopus are the Rockefeller-Standard Oil interest and a small group of powerful banking houses generally referred to as the international bankers. The little coterie of powerful international bankers virtually run the United States government for their own selfish purposes.

They practically control both parties, write political platforms, make catspaws of party leaders, use the leading men of private organizations, and resort to every device to place in nomination for high public office only such candidates as will be amenable to the dictates of corrupt big business...

These international bankers and Rockefeller-Standard Oil interests control the majority of the newspapers and magazines in this country. They use the columns of these papers to club into submission or drive out of office public officials who refuse to do the bidding of the powerful corrupt cliques which compose the invisible government...."

New York City Mayor John F. Hylan, 1922


“I have never yet had anyone who could, through the use of logic and reason, justify the Federal Government borrowing the use of its own money... I believe the time will come when people will demand that this be changed. I believe the time will come in this country when they will actually blame you and me and everyone else connected with the Congress for sitting idly by and permitting such an idiotic system to continue.”

Congressman Wright Patman

Federal Reserve/Bankers

“’The modern banking system manufactures money out of nothing. The process is perhaps the most astounding piece of sleight of hand that was ever invented.
Banking was conceived in iniquity and born in sin. Bankers own the Earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create money, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough money to buy it back again...
Take this great power away from them and all great fortunes like mine will disappear, and they ought to disappear, for then this would be a better and happier world to live in. But if you want to continue to be slaves of the banks and pay the cost of your own slavery, then let bankers continue to create money and control credit’.”

Sir Josiah Stamp Director, Bank of England 1928-1941
(reputed to be the 2nd richest man in Britain at the time)


"Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws."
Mayer Amschel Rothschild, International Banker


"If all the bank loans were paid, no one could have a bank deposit, and there would not be a dollar of coin or currency in circulation. This is a staggering thought. We are completely dependent on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash, or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system. When one gets a complete grasp of the picture, the tragic absurdity of our hopeless situation is almost incredible -- but there it is."

Robert Hemphill. Credit Manager, Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta

“That is what our money system is. If there were no debts in our money system, there wouldn’t be any money.”

Marriner S. Eccles, Chairman and Governor of the Federal Reserve Board


"In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value."

Alan Greenspan, before he Joined the Federal Reserve Board