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mazdamn02
Guest
Do you mean fuel cut?
And when are you going to buy the Cobb AP? Who can say no to +17% HP!
Bolt ons or straight turbo?
- Thread starter Young Roids
- Start date
And when are you going to buy the Cobb AP? Who can say no to +17% HP!
cosmicspd3
New Member
not to hijack but my question is fairly similar....sorta.
So how safe is it you guys thing to do bolt ons without a tune. I was going to order the turbo inlet pipe then wait for a while to do the TBE (6 months or so?). I just want to wait out the AP for a little while longer...
So how safe is it you guys thing to do bolt ons without a tune. I was going to order the turbo inlet pipe then wait for a while to do the TBE (6 months or so?). I just want to wait out the AP for a little while longer...
cosmicspd3
New Member
well after hearing of some people blowing engines (probably only a few and they had bad tunes? or over boosted) and some throwing CEL's with some bolt on's I was slightly worried. I havent seen to many issues with intake and TBE though. Its my DD so i just dont want to push it to hard into breaking a lot as that would suck big time being 2 hours drive from a speed repair shop
I've had my mazdaspeed CAI on since January, my TBE since April, and my BOV since early May. The only CEL I throw is the "bad cat" code...of which I have none...I have yet to throw a code that is telling me something is wrong with my car. As far as bolt-ons, you should be fine. Unless you decide to bolt on a monster turbo and blow up your engine. If your idea of fun is getting a 2 hour tow, then I say go for it!
Boost Cut and Fuel Cut are two different things.
Boost Cut - The ECU measures our the PSI our turbo is generating. If it goes over 18 for longer than 3 seconds (need confirmation), the engine will not like it. I hear the symptons are just like Fuel Cut.
Fuel Cut - our engines are trying to pull more fuel than the stock pump can provide...this can lead to running way too lean, and blowing your engine. I believe the ECU reads the amount of fuel being pumped, and the fuel being burned and when the fuel needed to burn > fuel being pumped it tries to shut down power and will buck you around like crazy and you will not like.
Totally off topic...but how does your speed3 like the shitty roads in Duluth? I swear those roads broke 3 of my springs ($1150)when I went to school up there...I love that city, but they need to spend some money on their friggen roads!
Boost Cut and Fuel Cut are two different things.
Boost Cut - The ECU measures our the PSI our turbo is generating. If it goes over 18 for longer than 3 seconds (need confirmation), the engine will not like it. I hear the symptons are just like Fuel Cut.
Fuel Cut - our engines are trying to pull more fuel than the stock pump can provide...this can lead to running way too lean, and blowing your engine. I believe the ECU reads the amount of fuel being pumped, and the fuel being burned and when the fuel needed to burn > fuel being pumped it tries to shut down power and will buck you around like crazy and you will not like.
Totally off topic...but how does your speed3 like the shitty roads in Duluth? I swear those roads broke 3 of my springs ($1150)when I went to school up there...I love that city, but they need to spend some money on their friggen roads!
Anytime a component in the system is changed it is recommended to address the tune, unless the parts are specifically calibrated and tuned to run with each other. I am seeing some aftermarket intakes doing a great job of NOT screwing up the MASS signal, but sometimes they just do more harm than good.
The only tuning software I've messed with on a speed anything was the cpe standback on a ms6. Good software. The DI setup allows you a finite window of injector operation, but with the duty cycles the factory injectors were running at, I would agree that the fuel pump is probably the limiting factor in the system (or fuel pump voltage supply).
It is always best to mod in sequence as the "paths" of opening up the intake/exhaust have been proven time and time again on multiple platforms. If mazda could have chosen a larger turbo that didn't work without sacrificing powerband, reliability, or cost, why wouldn't they? The reason is usually the engine is developed first, a turbo is then developed/chosen to match the power outputs/driving charteristics of the setup, then the remainder of the exhaust/intake is put on, as well as intercooling, drivetrain, and fuel support. Thats why the "bolt-ons" usually work well as they are the last thought about item.
Just my $.02.
The only tuning software I've messed with on a speed anything was the cpe standback on a ms6. Good software. The DI setup allows you a finite window of injector operation, but with the duty cycles the factory injectors were running at, I would agree that the fuel pump is probably the limiting factor in the system (or fuel pump voltage supply).
It is always best to mod in sequence as the "paths" of opening up the intake/exhaust have been proven time and time again on multiple platforms. If mazda could have chosen a larger turbo that didn't work without sacrificing powerband, reliability, or cost, why wouldn't they? The reason is usually the engine is developed first, a turbo is then developed/chosen to match the power outputs/driving charteristics of the setup, then the remainder of the exhaust/intake is put on, as well as intercooling, drivetrain, and fuel support. Thats why the "bolt-ons" usually work well as they are the last thought about item.
Just my $.02.
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spek1098
Guest
The ECU in the MS3 is piece of art if you ask me. I have run my car in a variety of different configurations without a single issue; the ECU was able to adapt and deliver varying levels performance relative to the setup. I've ran TMIC (w/o hood) and just the DP (tied for best performance), TMIC (w/o hood) and MP (3rd), FMIC (w/o & w/ hood) and MP (tied) and my current setup, FMIC with MS3 exhaust (4th). You don't need a tune to get more power out of this engine, the ECU is very adaptive and is the safest way to go, as most tunes will pretty much always lean it out which will equal more risk.
I agree, a good intake is a must, can't have something that isn't engineered to the same specs as the stock MAF housing, unless you’re ready to do a new tune for that.
From what I understand, because of the CDFP, the design of the cams is also going to be a stumbling block towards big power with the DISI head. Combined that issue with those duty cycles, and I'm guessing raising the RPMs much is going to be tough.
I agree, a good intake is a must, can't have something that isn't engineered to the same specs as the stock MAF housing, unless you’re ready to do a new tune for that.
From what I understand, because of the CDFP, the design of the cams is also going to be a stumbling block towards big power with the DISI head. Combined that issue with those duty cycles, and I'm guessing raising the RPMs much is going to be tough.
dmention7
Hater
No offense Jurgen, but I think this has been pretty much shown to be patently false. You can free up some ponies by uncorking the intake and exhaust, but after that all that's really left is tuning. The ECU controls everything from throttle plate position to boost level, and it seems to do everything in its power to keep the engine running as close to stock spec as possible. All of the configurations you listed are really just variations on the stock hardware except with more intake charge cooling (FMIC) and less backpressure (open DP), which are the cornerstones of any bolt-on setup.
Granted, my interpretation of "tuning" is any kind of mod that explicitly varies sensor inputs to the ECU, or the ECU's response to said inputs....
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spek1098
Guest
Let's make sure were on the same page first.
I'm thinking tune = AP, reflash, piggyback...
performance isn't so much peak numbers, more like less lag, quicker spool, holding boost longer
Well my experiences tell me that I don't need a tune to get more power out of opening up the intake and exhaust, and that was my point. I'm not saying there are no gains to be had from a tune, but I had very different responses from having a completely free exhaust to the stock setup. That tells me I can get alot out of just bolt-on without a tune. The computer adapted and gave me increased performance, with no sign of it trying to limit things by any other means other then BPV.
I am not saying a tune will not give more power and make better use of any mods that free up the intake or exhaust, because of coarse it will. But it does it by leaning it out. The pig rich stock setup is at least a pretty safe way to go, and any leaning of AFR is inherently more risky. How risky? Depends on the tune.
To say that it has been proven that you need a tune to get power from bolt seems a little suspicious to me. Just ask Nate, I seem to remember him saying that it was the fastest MS3 he'd seen when I took him for a ride that night.
I'm thinking tune = AP, reflash, piggyback...
performance isn't so much peak numbers, more like less lag, quicker spool, holding boost longer
Well my experiences tell me that I don't need a tune to get more power out of opening up the intake and exhaust, and that was my point. I'm not saying there are no gains to be had from a tune, but I had very different responses from having a completely free exhaust to the stock setup. That tells me I can get alot out of just bolt-on without a tune. The computer adapted and gave me increased performance, with no sign of it trying to limit things by any other means other then BPV.
I am not saying a tune will not give more power and make better use of any mods that free up the intake or exhaust, because of coarse it will. But it does it by leaning it out. The pig rich stock setup is at least a pretty safe way to go, and any leaning of AFR is inherently more risky. How risky? Depends on the tune.
To say that it has been proven that you need a tune to get power from bolt seems a little suspicious to me. Just ask Nate, I seem to remember him saying that it was the fastest MS3 he'd seen when I took him for a ride that night.
dmention7
Hater
Fair enough. I think I was just reading your post a bit wrong, but I agree with most of what you just said.
The one point I'd quibble with is where you said "the computer gave me increased performance". From what I've been reading about the behavior of the stock ECU, I would probably phrase that closer to "the computer allowed increased performance". Intake/exhaust mods generally have little to do with parameters the ECU can control, and more with simply freeing up mechanical power losses. (pumping losses/excessive backpressure)
The one point I'd quibble with is where you said "the computer gave me increased performance". From what I've been reading about the behavior of the stock ECU, I would probably phrase that closer to "the computer allowed increased performance". Intake/exhaust mods generally have little to do with parameters the ECU can control, and more with simply freeing up mechanical power losses. (pumping losses/excessive backpressure)
Links to prove that the stock system is "pig rich" what "pig rich" really is, and what afr your car is at currently? The OEM's put tunes on a vehicle for a reason.
Do you have before/after dyno results somewhere? I am curious to see what a bolt on ms3 makes.
My comment wasn't that you NEED a tune with bolt-ons, but if you are moving around sensors and piping pre or post them (especially MASS) you better check into it.
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Matt D.
Guest
First off, slapping on a bigger turbo without providing more fuel is bad. Bigger fuel pump, bigger injectors, and then maybe add an adjustable fuel pressure regulator.
Secondly, almost every car is going to respond positively to adding an aftermarket intake and exhaust. Intercooler piping and the intercooler can go on this list as well, anything that is less restrictive to the flow of air. Adding a boost controller to increase the boost a little along with a tune will help out even more and get the most out of everything.
For example on an Evo, adding an intake, turbo-back exhaust, raising the boost 3-5 PSI over stock along with a tune will gain somewhere around 50 to 70 additional horsepower to the wheels over a stock, untuned, unmodified Evo.
It's all a big system, every piece compliments another piece, but you have to think of it as each upgrade having a prerequisite of upgrading another piece of the system to support it and to make the most of it. Going too far in one direction without paying attention to the rest of the system will only cause problems.
Secondly, almost every car is going to respond positively to adding an aftermarket intake and exhaust. Intercooler piping and the intercooler can go on this list as well, anything that is less restrictive to the flow of air. Adding a boost controller to increase the boost a little along with a tune will help out even more and get the most out of everything.
For example on an Evo, adding an intake, turbo-back exhaust, raising the boost 3-5 PSI over stock along with a tune will gain somewhere around 50 to 70 additional horsepower to the wheels over a stock, untuned, unmodified Evo.
It's all a big system, every piece compliments another piece, but you have to think of it as each upgrade having a prerequisite of upgrading another piece of the system to support it and to make the most of it. Going too far in one direction without paying attention to the rest of the system will only cause problems.
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spek1098
Guest
No, I don't have links handy, but its common knollage around the msf and m3f of how rich this car runs, just take a look at everyones exhaust tips. On afr graphs I've seen it often drops below 10. I will be running a wideband when I upgrade the down pipe, but as of now I'm assuming my AFR are like most others and dipping blow 10, which I consider 'pig rich.' No dyno's either, but I don't need a dyno to feel the difference in lag. I know I'm going with how it 'feels' and so leaving things a little in question.
A dark exhaust tip shows there is unburned carbons in your exhaust system, good job
.Regardless, sure the cars run a bit rich, but I am 100% sure they are that way for a reason. I was working with that ms6 and leaned it out a little bit with little to no horsepower increase in some areas. Rich does not always equal low on power guys. Fuel is used for thermal management. Peak torque is usually 12.8-13.2 AFR with gasoline, however you need to run a richer afr pending your intake temperatures to avoid detonation. The reasoning of the rich AFR's is to protect against heatsoak with the TMIC's. The factory can't just expect the driver to run it thru 3 gears (or a few pulls) and call it a day, they have to put a tune on it that will last in the dessert, all day, with the driver beating the tar out of the car.
Thanks for the links guys, we had quite a few mazda's on our rollers as well, I just wanted to see some other information as well.
All I am saying is bolt-on's are the sure-fire way to go, but what would I know? A larger turbo is a great way to add additional cost, complication, and sometimes a performance decrease, without supporting mods.
This is not my first rodeo gentleman.
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Matt D.
Guest
Congratulations, you have identified carbon on exhaust tips. My car's exhaust tip is covered in carbon just like those. Is it running pig rich? No.tailpipes, stock MS3 vs w/full exhaust
I didn't see your pictures here at work, I was mearly going off what spek stated. A carbon'd up exhaust tip is usually a sign of a rich condition, but when and why it is rich is a bit more involved.